Yves Klein, the Monochrome - Interview with Lucio Fontana

The meeting with Yves Klein

I met Yves Klein, probably introduced by Iris Clert, around 1957-1958. He was already painting "blues" and "golds," especially "blues." Then he had an exhibition at the Galleria Apollinaire.¹ He sold nothing. A newspaper wrote that only Fontana could have bought this kind of painting. Indeed, I was the only one to purchase a painting from him.²

The new spirit

What did Yves Klein represent for you?

He represented the new spirit. Different from Expressionist painters like Rothko, who are concerned with the luminous vibration of space, from Pollock who wants to destroy space, make it explode, break the canvas. Different from me, who seeks another space. He was for the infinite.

What impression did he make on you?

It was incredible. It was not just a superficial sympathy, but his whole personality attracted me. I felt great admiration for him, as one might have for Einstein, for Manzoni.

Klein and the Futurists

Did he know the Italian Futurists?

In France, who knows the Futurists? Mathieu,³ who is a cultured man, was talking one day about space. He knew nothing about Futurism. It's incredible. Klein had nothing of the Futurist; he was not seeking dynamism, but pure space, the philosophy of space.

The relationship with Fontana's work

Was Klein in relation to your work?

I think he was through Iris Clert. At her gallery, a formidable group was forming: Arman, Soto, Klein, Takis, Tinguely... the most vibrant artists of today.

Did you understand Klein immediately?

Yes, immediately.

Did the megalomaniacal side of the character intervene in your relations?

With me he was not. He was very generous, and he also had great respect for my age. Every time I came to Paris, he waited for me at the station.

The reasons for the Klein phenomenon

What are the reasons for the appearance of the Klein phenomenon?

I think it is a consequence of the present world, of the discovery of the Cosmos. No one invents anything if there is no foundation. The artist is the one who sees a new dimension in what exists.

Do you consider Yves Klein very important?

Yes, very. There were two phenomena, Klein and Manzoni. Klein's "blue" and Manzoni's "infinite line".

Was Manzoni influenced by Klein?

He was a little younger. It must have happened more or less at the same time. Manzoni in any case understood Klein's lesson, Nothingness in Art. It was not a copy. There are intelligent artists who see things and then make personal works, and others who observe to do the same thing or idiotic things.

Klein's evolution

How do you see Klein's evolution?

After his "blues," he did very intelligent things, but he did not progress much in the Idea. The "rains" are beautiful, I very much like this way of capturing natural time, of imprinting true nature in the painting. The "golds" are also very beautiful, although a bit decorative. The "fires" do not have the same importance as all the rest, they are a bit informal. He also did horrible things. I saw an informal painting by Klein in Amsterdam, collage-type, very ugly; intelligent, but not up to standard.

Klein and the New Realists

You are interested in Klein, but also in all the "new realists," Klein's friends?

All research interests me, everything that is not traditional art. Pop art, Arman, Raysse, Tinguely... but they have nothing to do with realism. What is New Realism? Restany came later and put everything together, César and Klein... I don't understand, it's a jumble, a confusion. Klein, Arman, Tinguely, César, Rauschenberg, are very intelligent artists, but they have nothing to do with one another, it's not the same research... Arman is the object, César is sculpture, Klein is the dimension of space.

The influence on Pino Pascali

What is Klein's influence on current Italian art?

What Pino Pascali does is in the spirit of Iris [sic] Klein. His "rivers," which hold water in rows of tanks, are a way of trapping nature, as Klein did with his "rains." But his great influence is the end of art.

The end of traditional art

So do you think art is dead?

Ah! no, I never said that art is dead. I said it is the END OF ART. Of traditional art, to search for something else. The social function of art is finished, the construction of pyramids or propaganda for the Church and the Army. A few centuries ago, 60% of the population worked for art: architecture, painting, decoration, furniture, etc. In the sixteenth century, a lock, a spoon were artistic. Today, mechanical craftsmanship has replaced manual craftsmanship, engineers have replaced artists. We are therefore much less numerous, but more specialized. In something else, however.

How do you see the development of art after Klein and also after you?

I cannot speak of the future. Man will walk on the Moon, on Mars. Art can end. It is not a necessity, despite everything they say: eating, sleeping under a roof, protecting oneself from the cold, these are important things. Art serves less and less, replaced by engineers, by the machine. If it wants to continue, it must evolve, become more philosophical.

Art as philosophy

What is the meaning of this evolution, in your opinion?

I completely agree with La Chinoise by Godard:⁴ until now, art has only had a bourgeois function. Decoration, transposition, embellishment... Today, engineers are enough, even to build pyramids. Art must therefore become something else. Look, a magazine just asked me to create a hairstyle. But they didn't accept my project, because it was different. I told them: "If you want a beautiful hairstyle, you don't need me, a hairdresser is enough for you, and he will do a thousand times better than me. With Fontana, it's different." It's about IDEAS. Art is no longer a small invention, with added quality, added to what already exists. Art will be something entirely different, look at Klein's "nothingness," the idea of infinite blue... Not an object, nor a form... Nothing more to do with bourgeois consumption, beauty tied to a saleable object. Art will become infinite, immensity, immaterial, philosophy... Enough with the bourgeois function of art! Let's open the doors. I am La Chinoise...